I think the last time I heard this story it might have been a veggie tales movie. This is the much grittier version. I'm not really sure what to make of it but there is some severity that makes me think its best not to make too many assumptions. Greg, your comments I found interesting. You say that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the new. But we do have a much different relationship, and as I understand it, a different "covenant" which would not involve any vengeance because we are justified and purified. As I understand it God sees us as righteous regardless of our sin, the scale balanced, and even in our wretched and failed state its "Just if I'd never sinned" as the play on the word justified goes. So I guess I don't see it as a statement on the nature of God, be it vengeful or loving. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of this.

You both gave me lots to chew on. I think I have a variety of doctrines from growing up in Calvary Chapel, going to a Friends college, post modern church in my 20s and now in my 30s getting the methodist perspective. And Rob has to throw in some catholic perspective of course =). But taking into account what you guys have said here and conversations with other influential people I'm still leaning towards loving God not vengeful. Looking at the Father analogy, my kids sin all the time. Even if they wanted to I wouldn't be able to stop loving them. My actions would be disciplinary always and not severing the relationship. As it applies in the chapter I don't really know because what is physical death to God? His relationship with his people transcends physical death so I'm not sure what the significance is from a "personal" standpoint. However, I can see it maybe being a punishment to the people as a whole, or maybe even a disciplinary action for the Israelites again as a whole. Their relationship with God does not seem nearly as personal as ours is, and perhaps he deals with them differently. He may have been trimming the fat, giving the people a chance, or some other longer term purpose in the same way that we can't always see why a bad thing our lives can be part of a bigger perspective that God may have planned. I also wasn't quite trying to take the discussion to a once saved always saved route. But more nature of our relationship with God. The Israelites sinned all the time, as we all do. This is no secret and as I understand it this is the intention of the law, to show us/them how failing we are. Sacrifice is what brings us into a relationship with God. Without being perfect it's just not possible for us to have a relationship with God, again this is all as I understand a very difficult concept. So then, are we constantly in and out of relationship with God every time we sin and are made unpure? Doesn't seem so to me. It seems that we sin and that the purity of Jesus keeps us in relationship with Him. So then the question is, what is the impact of sin if it doesn't sever our relationship with our Father? And in the old testament, the impact was vengeance, and as I understood your post Greg, you believe that this is still the impact today. I however, am thinking that there are natural consequences for our sin, it may degrade the richness of our relationship with our father but that because of Jesus it does not sever the relationship nor incur God's vengeance to balance the scales of that sin.

This is a really wild chapter. Lots that can be confusing and in our previous discussions we discussed a lot of it. One thing that I picked up on this time that I didn't last time I read it was the influence of Moses. Churches can be like this a lot as well, where they are really following a pastor and not following God. The more charismatic and influential the pastor the greater the danger. When I was a kid I went to a very large church which also had a school and I think the pastor there reached this same status. He had a mid life crisis which included some shady financial practices as well as an affair with a girl from my class. This church of thousands literally dissolved overnight as did the school in the middle of the school year. I'm not saying Moses is at fault here, but us as followers need to be cognizant of where we are drawing our energy for God. If the presence or attention of a leader is determining the fluctuations in our walk with God we might be in the same position as these Israelites. Such is the case with my church and school who without their leader felt so lost as to completely abandon years of God's work.